Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom

@VoidofLight I'm really glad to help by sharing my thoughts. I'm very excited to dive more into this game soon! September will be a busy month, with Marvel Vs Capcom & Zelda. Glad it's my B-Day month and I can justify spending a bit more than usual on games

I wonder, what makes this a 2D game? I mean, it's rendered in 3D and you move Zelda in 3D space. The only major difference I can see is that the background perspective is stable. If this is a 2D game, then so is Super Mario 3D World, no?

@cwong15 "2D Zeldas" are what people refer to the top-down Zelda titles. Mainly because 2D Zeldas aren't working on a full 3D plain. Mario 3D World is still working with a full 3D axis, even with forced camera perspectives. 2D Zeldas aren't.

@VoidofLight Could you clarify your terminology? What do you mean by "full 3D plain", or "full 3D axis"?

As far as I can tell from the trailers, this latest Zelda is rendered with the usual 3D graphics with "forced camera perspectives", pretty much as you described Super Mario 3D World. The latter game — as opposed to something like Super Mario Galaxy — keeps the background perspective fixed to allow multi-player gaming. But whatever the motivation, the result seems pretty similar. In either case, your character interacts with the environment on 3 axis.

From my perspective, it's perfectly clear to describe this Zelda game style as "top-down", describing the overhead, fixed camera angle. But I still fail to see how this can be termed "2D", except in select side-perspective levels.

@cwong15 in this game you only go the four cardinal directions. There's no vertical axis in the sense of a fully 3D title. TotK for example has sky islands and the depths. It plays with verticality. Everything in games like A Link Between Worlds and Echoes of Wisdom has "depth," but not to the same extent. Sure, there are mountains in the game, but said mountains are still shown at a top-down and flat angle.

Either way, 2D Zelda and Top Down Zelda are the same thing. People call it 2D because the style is vastly different from the 3D Zeldas in both gameplay and how the world is approached. It's a remnant of the Gameboy days for when we were getting full 3D Zeldas on home console and sprite-based Zeldas on handheld.

@cwong15 For whatever it's worth, a lot of people call games like Zelda Echoes 2.5D

Seeing as you can arbitrarily stack echoes anywhere, I'd think that the third dimension is going to be in play most of the time. That's as opposed to, say, Phantom Hourglass, where you're only rarely using it, typically only as scripted events.

@Matt_Barber I guess, but even then 2D Zelda is still referred to as 2D Zelda since it follows the same style of the old 2D games. Plus it rolls off the tongue better than "Top down Zelda."

Yeah, the terms stick because they're succinct, even if not strictly accurate.

Thinking about it, Triforce Heroes has a lot of 3D puzzles in it too. That's a much easier game to wave away as an outlier than I'd expect Echoes of Wisdom to be, however.

I’ve seen some people tired of the Breath of the Wild-infication of Zelda games, but this game is unique because it has a blend of both the old and new, which each have their own dedicated fans. For a game with Zelda as the protag, they did a fantastic job making her not just be a female link. They give her a sword form, but it’s cleverly timed so you can’t burn through the game with it, you gotta be creative. Truthfully, I will probably buy this game day one not only because it looks incredible, but because I support having Zelda as the protagonist for more loz games in the future

Personally I don't mind Zelda being the protagonist of this game, but I hope they don't just go and make Link a supporting role in future games with Zelda being the primary protagonist. I like playing as Link and I enjoy him as a main character more than anything. I feel like Zelda being the protagonist of Echoes of Wisdom is going to be a one and done sort of deal, sorta like with Zelda being the sidekick in Spirit Tracks.

I doubt it's going to be as straightforward as that. I can imagine them seeing how to push what can be done with them both as playable characters within the same story(no extra modes or anything like that) should they try their hands at a playable Zelda again.

Fair points all round, but I think the 2D vs 3D distinction will get eroded further with this particular Zelda installment. We see Zelda climbing, scaling cliffs and flying. The vertical axis is much more prominent here.

@N00BiSH I feel like that'll probably be what they do next if Zelda is given a protagonist role again. I genuinely feel like her being the sole protagonist is just for this game and this game only.

@cwong15 Minish Cap had that stuff too and it was a 2D Zelda.

@N00BiSH I don't recall the vertical axis being so prevalent in Minish Cap. It simulated depth using the usual 2D conventions found in older games like the Final Fantasy series, IIRC. You have restricted paths to restricted areas that happened to look like ladders or stairs leading to "levels". You had areas that had limited movement so you could leave but could not reenter: they happened to look like ledges or bridges, so it looked like you were jumping off. These are limited zones of simulated verticality.

This Zelda is different. You have the vertical axis in your pocket everywhere, making 3-axis gameplay prevalent. Anywhere at any height (and height is achievable anywhere), you could start gliding, and that retain that height wherever you glide (I'm basing off your ability to anchor to a bird). In dungeons, you have this spider that webs to your ceiling with a vertical line. That is literally your Z axis that you can pull out anywhere.

Given all this, I'm not sure there is a meaningful technical distinction now between "2D" and "3D". They're all rendered in 3D with lighting and textures. The only distinction is the fixed camera angle in "2D", even though even the concept of a "camera" is a 3D graphics concept. But since we don't have good (non-clunky) alternative terminology, I guess we'll continue to call this genre "2D".

@cwong15 Well beyond just the graphical style, there are other differences that are what make "2D Zelda" 2D Zelda. There's the level design for one, where dungeons and puzzles are designed in a very different way compared to full on 3D Zelda dungeons and puzzles. There's the whole side-scrolling aspect that Link's Awakening had. The over-all level design and how it's presented also differs heavily.

Even though this game is a bit more open and has more free-form puzzles, if you were to take this game and compare it to Tears of the Kingdom- there's still a massive difference in how the level design is conveyed and how the game is structured which is still unique to the "2D Zelda" titles.

It's like how if you compare A Link Between Worlds to Twilight Princess or Ocarina of Time. A Link Between Worlds is rendered in a 3D style, but the level designs and puzzles are handled in a different way that makes the game more unique from the other 3D games. This is the same with Echoes of Wisdom and the new Zelda titles that are "3D Zeldas."

I pre-ordered it with a voucher and it just downloaded itself to my Switch and is staring at me.

I pre-ordered a physical copy and will have to wait until Thursday.