Sonic Mania 2 Didn't Happen Because Sega Wanted To "Move Beyond" Pixel Art

People are probably gonna be mad/upset about this, but I think the logic is sound. You'd think a Sonic Mania sequel would have a much smaller budget and would even out in the end. Hopefully they still make a Mania 2 eventually.

"You kind of end up targeting a very specific core audience."

What, you mean literally everyone? That's the audience SEGA wanted to "move beyond"? Because Sonic Mania did appeal to literally everyone. It was a critical and commercial darling, because it was an outstanding game with a timeless aesthetic.
But oh sure, let's "move beyond" universal success. What a great idea, SEGA.

Hand drawn would've been so amazing lol. Imagine if it looked like the Sonic Cd intro. Nonetheless the game looks pretty great as is.

@CharlieGirl I know people personally (as a 20 year old) that didn't want to play Mania due to its pixel art style. I think that's dumb but there's definitely a lot of people out there like that. Also as Sega doesn't release good sale numbers for their sales numbers for their games, there's no way to know how well Sonic Mania sold beyond the initial 1 million Sega posted on the Sonic Twitter.

"When you make a 2D game using pixel art, you kind of end up targeting a very specific core audience..." - yeah, that's not unlike what the likes of Disney and DreamWorks thought twenty years ago in a different fiction medium, too.🙄 Those who fail to learn from history...

Makes sense. If you want to make a franchise timeless you have to keep updating it to match tech. Nobody (or at least very few people) are asking Mario Bros Wonder to look like an NES game. Young people now didn’t grow up with 8/16 bit systems.

It makes sense if the devs wanted to do their own thing but the Sega statement sounds like bs since they made origins

Disappointing, but at the same time, more power to them for wanting to make something original. Hope they succeed in doing what they set out to do.

As much as I feel that pixel art is overused these days, I would've loved to see a sequel to Mania, and it seemed like such an obvious move: all the groundwork is already there, so just make more of the same, with more new zones this time around... and no Green Hill!

Otherwise, yeah, it's great if they're keeping the tight gameplay of the 2D games, but making something more visually advanced. Seems like the best direction for 2D Sonic to take, though again, no Mania 2 seems like a major missed opportunity.

@HammerKirby exactly this. As unfortunate as it can be, I think the younger demographic doesn’t go for pixel art. But like you said, Sega doesn’t release a ton of numbers, so it’s hard to say what demographic was buying Sonic Mania. My gut tells me it skewed older, but who knows?

@nhSnork I mean, Dreamworks and Disney moved away from hand drawn animation because their cgi movies were making more money. Princess and the Frog was a last chance for the medium, and it was outperformed by Chicken Little.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just the reality.

Might be a controversial take, but I don’t think we need Sonic Mania 2. It’s a good game, but I don’t want it to be what the Sonic series becomes. You don’t see Mario relying on the old graphics and style, they’re almost always pushing forward. The new Sonic Superstars is the right idea. Classic feel but pushing the series forward.

Again, I like Sonic Mania, but making something new is the right decision.

@judaspete 100% right. Once studios like Pixar started making hit after hit, audiences just moved away from hand-drawn. Same thing has happened with games, 3D graphics have completely taken over. I think many of us here appreciate the classic styles, but reality is we aren’t in the majority.

@Waluigi451 I would have wanted a Sonic Mania 2, but I agree with your overall sentiment: it's good if the series moves forward, and the last thing I'd want is to see Sonic get stuck in an endless line of "Manias" that doesn't do anything fresh. (You mention Mario moving forward, but ironically, it was New Super Mario Bros. that immediately came to mind.)

That's a shame, Superstars looks pretty good but Mania 2 could have been incredible.

I don't see why they didn't just hire the same team they did for Mania, since the new game is made by Sonic Team and Arzest I think there could have been room for both.

There's still very much a place for pixel art and I'd prefer if they kept making Sonic games in that style.

The problem is that hand-drawn graphics doesn't really mean much. There are many styles that are possible. The issue I have with a lot of hand-drawn games(or digital art by hand) is the use of thick black outlines that are perfectly crisp and uniform, which has the effect of making everything look flat, with the characters looking detached from the background. This isn't a rule, and even that style can work depending on the theme of the game, but that's a lot of what people mean when they say something looks like a Flash game. It would be interesting to see what they could have come up with for a hand-drawn Sonic. Cuphead was a fantastic example of hand drawn, perhaps too much so from the perspective of sustainability of development, but that's a different issue. And even pixel art done at a high enough resolution can look amazing.

@smoreon haha, I knew someone would call me on New Super Mario Bros. My thing with that is, while it plays a lot like the originals, it doesn’t look like them. And there are some new items and whatnot to separate it. Whereas Mania is the same art style as the originals so it feels older, NSMB at least visually feels modern, if that makes sense.

And yeah, I’m down for a Sonic Mania 2 sometime in the future. But I think right now something new is the right decision.

Idk if I’m the only one on this but Superstars artstyle is just really unappealing to me. Looks very plasticy and cheap. I understand their logic here, but the pixel art was way better imo

I really liked the pixel art, especially compared to the art design Superstars has. I don't know what it is, but it just looks like a really bland, generic art style. Would have much preferred if they had just gone with the art design the Adventure and Advance games had.

There is something nostalgic about pixel art but I personally prefer the new look anyway myself so no problem here.

Good to hear there was no bad blood between the devs and Sega. It sounds like it was a mutual decision to split and go a different direction. While a hand-drawn 2D Sonic game sounds amazing, I'm looking forward to see how Superstars pans out.

And they made a right decision, cause Sonic Superstars looks great!

It's patronising and wrong to imply casual, young or modern gamers can't enjoy pixel-art games. Considering some of the butt ugly mobile games that become a huge success I don't think the average gamer has any specific aesthetic taste or preference!

And hello... look at the success of Minecraft which is all massive blocky pixels!

@burgerkingsauce I agree. I don’t think there are many 2D games from the 8/16 but eras that have looked better by going 2.5D, or at least a straight translation to 2.5D. The NSMB games look really unappealing to me in much the same way this game does. They don’t look bad, but there’s not much charm to them. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that managed 2.5D successfully coming from that era is DKCR/TF, but the originals were already going for that look and there’s so much animation and so much going on in every frame of those games that it’s hard not to love how they look.

The best transitions of old school 2D games into the modern era are by far those that went heavily stylised liked Rayman Origins/Legends or Kirby Epic Yarn/Rainbow Curse. We could have a Sonic game that emulates the look of the animated shorts accompanying Mania etc. which would be way better than this which as you say, just looks plasticky and cheap. I get that would be much more expensive and difficult to do but if Ubisoft can nail a hand drawn aesthetic with Rayman I don’t see why they couldn’t with Sonic.

Good.
Don't get me wrong I loved Mania but it was basically a remix of the pixel Sonic games, which I say as a compliment, another remix would be hard to justify itself. (Basically the same reason I am desperate for Xenoverse 3 to do something new).

I wish they would had least gotten the same dev team to help with superstars.

@larryisaman yes, don’t understand why they couldn’t do a hand drawn artstyle like that. Would look miles better than this

I'm 100% sure that Sonic Superstar is not good as Mania.

Okay then give us Sonic Adventure 3 then. I never expect Sonic Mania to have a sequel anyways but I do expect a sequel to the 3D polygonal modern Sonic that shape up the industry. It seems that Iizuka is just looking for excuse not to give their fans the good stuff. I will give them points for doing something different with Sonic Superstars and may pick that one up soon.

Sonic 1 and 2 were the best games. The rest are ass. I have sonic mania plus and haven't even bothered to complete it. It's just the same old stuff. Roll on sonic superstars. Glad to see a new take on a 30 year old franchise

I don't think Whitehead heads up Headcannon. That'd be Stealth (can't remember his real name).

I’m totally dating myself here, but it’s like that old commercial where people are debating over soft shell or hard shell tacoes and the little girl throws her hands up and says, “Why don’t we have both?!”

I’m all for the look of Sonic Superstars, but I’ll also take Sonic Mania 2 as well.

@CharlieGirl Exactly, and they always do this! Sonic Adventure 2 was the best 3D sonic ever made IMO, they finally found the formula that worked for Sonic in 3D, after failed attempted on Saturn, and what did they do to surf on this vibe? Anything but that of course!! Sonic Heroes with 3 Characters and a gameplay that kinda works, but not so much, Sonic as a Werewolf!! Yeah sure! great! everyone wanted that! Sonic with a Sword and the legend of the King Arthur!! Sure! The MegaDrives fan always asked for that!!

And now that they had a superbe 2D Sonic back on track, they drop it! Great SEGA, fantastic!

I think folks wanted a Mania sequel from the Mania dev because the game has a level of quality and classic appeal that Sega hadn’t ever nailed before. Iizuka focusing on just the pixel graphics is burying the lede.

@Waluigi451 The comparison with New Super Mario Bros is really stupid and i totally agree on Sonic Mania. For me, it was a total disappointment. Yes, some people can argue that levels are re designed in some ways, but the thing is that it feels the exact same way to playthrough Green Hill Zone and Chemical Plant and that gives me nothing, as i have already done that before. The sad thing is that the 4 new levels are very god, but it should have been all new levels to catch my overall intrest. Iam surprised that no game jounalist ponited out the the laziness on that whole project.

Would have loved a mania 2, Sega could have given the team free reign over the entire game to see what innovative gameplay / levels they could have come up with.

@HammerKirby Either that or Sonic X. Or Riders' intro. Would be a pain in the ass to mod though, since Sonic fans love that.

ok, i can kinda get that. i have a good few friends who refused to play mania given the artstyle, but i also think that they just werent interested in the genre overall.

I'm ready to see Sonic sucking again this year.

@Tryffel did we play the same game? There's lots of words you could use to describe the game, but lazy definitely isn't one of them.

@fenlix please god no we need all the luck we can get

Too bad that Mania 2 can’t be made, but I agree. This gen is infested with pixel art games. I usually shy off of them except for old games and Sonic Mania. Perhaps they could make hand drawn art for the next entry.

@epicgamner The laziness for me was the the decision to make a game with 75 % levels from the past. If i want to play Chemical plant zone again, i prefer doing it on Sonic 2,

@Tryffel to be completely transparent, sonic mania was my first sonic game. So needless to say the reuse of level theme and design didn't bother me since it was all new. It's also made playing the older games for the first time fun since i find little details in them that inspired some of the stuff from mania. I think that the gameplay loop i fell into as a new player really benefitted my enjoyment compared to yours.

@judaspete Chicken Little and PatF are three years apart, and an animation submedium is not something to give "last chances to". The WDAS classics of the early 2000s were faced with various reported marketing SNAFUs while CG movies were still riding on the associative hype of Shrek and the Pixar lineup, and even despite it, throwing out an entire legacy sure didn't set the studio's box office alight until 2010's Tangled (which, apart from the graphics, heavily channeled the previous renaissance's recipes) or so.

Decades later, with the CG hype long curbed by saturation, similarly lackluster marketing has been doing no favours to WDAS movies again, to the point where Strange World is compared to Treasure Planet in this regard. So what now, go for live action instead?😏 Ironically, that's what was in the air over the 1940s and 50s under Disney himself, with many animated classics of the period either bombing or barely breaking even for various reasons. Western features animation would be a remarkably different world today if those kneejerks had prevailed. And the ripples from the collective kneejerk of Eisner, Katzenberg & Co are felt to this day.

@Samalik I said CD since this is classic Sonic. But yeah those would be great as well

So graphics are more important than being good. Gotcha. What a brilliant decision.

Good stuff. I’m glad they’re on good terms with each other. I’m super excited for Superstars. I would still like to see something like Sonic Freedom be official, and Sonic Utopia. I’m just glad we’re still getting classic style Sonic Games at all, honestly.

I would have liked another Sonic Mania, but Superstars looks fun and so does Penny's Big Breakaway so I'm not too torn up about it.

I'm also glad I ignore a lot of rumors online about dev drama, because they turned out to be false in this case.

Pixel art is harder and more time consuming to do well so it is up to your personal taste.

Yeah better to appeal to the core audience who actively ask for glitch-ridden suckfests

@sdelfin Interesting... I hadn't thought of the line thickness as being a factor in the "Flash game" look. The first thing that I notice is when games go with very flat, low contrast artwork, with a low frequency of detail. It contributes to the Flash look in HD, or the "indie pixel game" look in pixel art.

That, and using sprite rotation to "animate" the characters, instead of drawing actual animation frames!

I don't know if they can appeal to a larger audience. The 90s are long gone. Sonic will always have a limited audience.

@Waluigi451 Oh yeah, New Super Mario Bros. was a visual departure from the classics for sure, and it was arguably a refreshing return to the classic formula back in 2006- just as Sonic Mania was a nice return to Sonic's roots in 2017! But NSMB churned out three sequels in just a few years, and they did little to advance the graphics, presentation, or gameplay.

Had the sequels been spread out better, and had they done more to advance the series, there wouldn't be an issue. And had Sonic Mania come out with one sequel that adds 6+ new zones and brings back a few more favourites, then I think the majority of Sonic fans would have loved it.

On the other hand, if we were on Sonic Mania 4 already in 2023, and they were still using the same play mechanics on all the same zones (Green Hill and Chemical Plant, woo!), book-ended by the exact same story, then that would be an extremely disappointing turn for Sonic!

@burgerkingsauce

You literally described the art style of Sonic 4.

@smoreon Off topic, but is your profile pic actually what Zelda's face looks like under the disguise, or did someone add the mouth?

@CharlieGirl Exactly. At the bestbuy i work at, we sell out about 10 copies a week of this game

To me it seems like a win-win.

We get both Sonic Superstars and Penny’s Big breakaway.
Headcannon/Evening Star remain on good terms with Sega and can collaborate again someday.

I can see how they would like future games, or thoughts on evolving the series, to be as close to the movies as possible (due to the recent success of the films). As the 3D assets create a somewhat similar feel to the CGI experience. I understand their point of reaching a wider audience appeal from a visual perspective, in order to bring new fans into the series, while also maintaining the classic gameplay style.

@LXP8 Yep, it's literally Sheik's model from OoT (N64 version), just with the mask removed.

I want an HD-2D platformer game. Be it Sonic, Mario, Kirby, or any game series.

I'm hearing "Sonic Superstars is the game that Christian Whitehead and Sega could not agree on making together, so Sega went and made it anyway" even though I know the actual facts are little more granular than that.

But, we got a new Sonic game that looks pretty f'in sweet, so that's not a bad tradeoff, I guess.

@smoreon Yeah, there are a number of elements to that Flash look, some of which you mentioned and with which I agree. A lot of those come from the rise of digitally-created artwork. Thick black outlines tend to contribute to that flatness. A lot of professional visual work in older video games, traditional cel animation, and inked comic books, avoided thick black outlines which was seen more often in humorous comic strips and animation where the gags were more important than the visuals. If you think back to when Streets of Rage 4 was shown, the art was divisive with some saying it had a Flash look. I wasn't a fan of it, myself. But I did look at a "Behind the art" video which showed some of their unused concept art including some alternate designs without those thick outlines and I thought that change ended up looking way better and more serious and, perhaps, professional. You can check it out if you're curious. As for that game, I eventually did get it and I give the developers credit for the feel of the game, but for also including a couple of CRT filters which I thought did a nice job in my view.

@fenlix You're forgetting the third movie.

@Waluigi451 “You don’t see Mario relying on the old graphics and style, they’re almost always pushing forward.”

Nintendo spent sixteen years releasing New Super Mario Bros. games. (I know you said almost always, but I feel like I should point this out.)

@CharlieGirl You’re kind of forgetting that Origins happened after Mania. So you complaining about SEGA moving on from 2D after the mixed-bag fest that Origins is kinda hypocritical if you ask me.

@Pigeon Nah, when it comes to Sonic, there’s three audiences you should know about - those who love Classic Sonic, those who love the good Modern Sonic games, and those who love the Pontac & Graff Modern Sonic games.

What they’re saying is that making a Mania 2 would target the audience that love Classic Sonic, and so they want to avoid doing that in a way that feels old and cliché.

@Ruler-Of-All-Evil Origins doesn't count, because it's a compilation. Mania was an original game (with re-used set pieces, I know. But the levels and gameplay are all new).

But Warewolf and Medival Sonic has a bigger target audience?

@CharlieGirl Compilation or not, Origins is still a 2D Sonic game. So, what I said still applies.

@Ruler-Of-All-Evil I guess I should clarify that by “old” I meant utilizing the pixel graphics for nostalgia. Once Mario leaves a style, he rarely returns to it. (Mario Maker is the only instance or returning to an old art style that I can think of.)

I do agree that Nintendo stuck with the NSMB series a bit too long. But, at the time when the series began, the graphics were new. They just didn’t change much for awhile and became old lol

@nhSnork I wanted to compare PatF with a CGI movie that wasn't very good, but the same box office disparity applies when compared to Bolt and Tangled.
In any case, the upcoming Wish has a mix of hand drawn and CGI animation in it, so if we want more of that, we all better show up to the theatre.

I agree.

Personally, I'm kind of sick of Pixel art. I find that in an era where we can have sprites that look crisp and well defined. it's a bit lazy.

@sForzan You do know people loved Frontiers, right?

Hand-drawn 2D in the same art style as all these animated Sonic intros (Mania and Superstars etc). It’s right there for the taking.

That's both interesting and understandable, yet disappointing. In the end I feel like what we are getting does look good, but I'd rather not see the "end" of classic-style pixelated 2D Sonic games. But it seems Christian Whitehead has lost interest in that style as a developer, and from a marketing perspective Sega has too. And that second one is really ironic, considering Sega is KING of leaving out their own fans and possible customers and pissing them off.

Look no further than:

• The original digital-only releases of both Sonic Mania and Sonic Origins
• The clusterf--- that was Sonic Origins' release in general, including all its DLC and various "editions" with a sprawling, complicated maze of "features" that resembled something Microsoft would use to artificially separate Windows or Office into different product tiers
• The continuing disappointment of Origins Plus, where they added like maybe two or three major things, and left the rest of the game intact... including all of its faults, no improvements, same horrible and inconsistent save system/menus, no sharp CRT pixel filter, AND they managed to screw over original Origins owners out of a few bucks, while purchasers of the physical product only got the original base game we've been playing for over a year now on cartridge along with a download code equivalent to what us digital owners would use. Well, if there's anything good out of it, I guess it's that the download code that comes with your cartridge can, in fact, be used with not only your cart, but also your digital copy of the game.

@Pigeon Maybe because it’s using Classic Sonic in a way that doesn't feel old & cliché?

So Iizuka feels that Sonic Mania would have been even more successful had it used 3D assets? Because that's what I'm getting when I read between the lines, but it seems to me that Sonic Mania did just fine with pixels. Go figure.